GW: It’s something that we couldn’t have foreseen when I started the Signs series (1992–3). I didn't even know if it was an artwork, I thought maybe it could be a magazine spread. I didn’t think of its longevity, um, because I had had no experience of that. And some of the photographs did become very well known, I am not sure if the people in my series would be seen as celebrities, but some of the photographs have become emblematic. But when photographing someone well known the person’s history is dominant already in the photograph, so it’s sometimes hard to see without having some preconception of the person.

CO: And then that's the beauty of having, like going back to what I was saying, the beauty of having a conversation with the true history of portraiture to begin to unpack these things. Because as artists, you don't go in thinking that your work is going to maybe last thirty years. I mean, I certainly don't. I know that there's photographs that I've made that nobody will ever see. I don't assume that because I have a status as an artist that everything will be shown. [Laughs] But I think it's just great to get audiences to think in these other ways, you know?

CO: You know, I'm building this new persona now, which is like directly something I would have done in the 80s and 90s, which is the lesbian cowboy. I think I told you about this at lunch. And so she's going to have her own little journey. I don't know where she's going yet, but she's gonna have some fun in the next couple of years trying to dissect what's happening right now in this world.

GW: And we'll get that cowboy's perspective, hopefully. [Laughs]

CO: Yeah, I mean, you just have to play with the irony of masculinity at this point. I mean, I didn't transition. I'm still a proud dyke butch. And so let's go ahead and just have the lesbian cowboy say some things around masculinity right now. [Laughs]

GW: After doing the Signs series I thought, How do I image myself? Because I was looking at other people, I was thinking, Where am I in this? And that's when I started doing the self-portraits. I think the personal and the, um, private can’t help but interact, because as artists we are bringing personal perspectives into the work, we’re processing thoughts and ideas. I am always living in my head as an artist.

CO: Yeah, it's good that you, I mean, it's interesting because I think that's why I did the self-portraits. Who am I to photograph my own community without putting myself in the most raw place within this body of work? Which were the cutting self-portraits.

GW: Yes. Yeah, they're very powerful.

Excerpt from Middle Plane Issue No.12 (Spring/Summer 2026). Read the full interview by ordering your copy here.

Photographer: Sam Penn

Catherine wears Gucci with her own clothes throughout